Author Topic: Please get all the facts on the proposed farmers' market ordinance  (Read 13923 times)

Offline HippyWitch

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I rarely comment here but.......
HippyWitch

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:)
And Jesus Christ, if I commented that many times, it was clearly before Facebook ;)
« Last Edit: 10-10-2014, 01:36pm by MCA »

Offline HippyWitch

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I rarely comment here but.......
HippyWitch

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:)
Lmfao if you check you'll see most were back in the beginning before it turned into the same like 10 people commenting, with a let's attack the new guy mentality  ::)
« Last Edit: 10-10-2014, 01:36pm by MCA »

Offline Rabelais

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I rarely comment here but.......
HippyWitch

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:)
[02:35 PM] jehu: and the only people on here who gives good advice are few.

Offline HippyWitch

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I rarely comment here but this entire thing is pissing me off. While I think your storefront is real pretty and all I've never stepped foot in it because the sandpaper bottom pizza is a turn off, if I want to rip the top of my mouth to shreds I'll eat a bowl of Cap'n Crunch. I'm not sure how empanadas and ribs affect your business, if people were selling slices of pizza then I would totally get it. 

I also think the 17 other restaurants who are with you on this are pussies, I haven't seen one jump to your defense here or the other message boards. That makes me sad for you. If you did some research you would see what some people think about Ibby and Jeff. I love living in JC, I love supporting local businesses, but when owners start to become assholes, well next please. 

Some weeknights I don't get off the PATH until 7:50pm, I want something fast to grab and take home, a few empanadas, or ribs, a block of cheese, take 1 minute if that as opposed to (from the yelp reviews) 40 minutes for a pie, Yo Greys Anatomy starts at 8pm, I can't be screwing around, no dvr for me, I have to watch that shit in real time due to Twitter and Facebook spoilers. 

I do wish you nothing but success because as I said before I really dig your storefront and would hate to see you go and I never wish failure on anyone but Julia Roberts. I also love the Farmers Market and options. Be well sir, the Farmer's Market will be over soon and then you all can boycott Newark Ave for allowing 11,000 new restaurants to open.

Offline AaRoMo

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Hey Stephen,
I totally sympathize with the desire for choice.  We need more.  But we need to to achieve choice in a way that is fair.  In our case, street vendors are getting the best location in JC for peanuts while we pay market rate.   We pay the taxes, hire local contractors, hire Jersey City residents.  They don't.  It's just not a level playing field and the government shouldn't be facilitating that.
I'm hoping to sit down with the farmer's market organizers and SIDs and hammer out something we can all live with.
Aaron

Offline stephen

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Cinnamon Snail is an interesting case.  It's possible that they deserve a special status as they offer food for people with restricted diets.  But, I'd also argue that once someone opens a brick and mortar offering a full range of vegan fare, they should move on.

Restricted diets?  Why must this be an issue of non-choice?  Seems to be the whole theme of this effort:  Restrict choice to what's offered from an establishment no matter if what you want is on offer. Your pizza is great, it stands-out beyond the hum-drum of market, but I don't always want pizza and, frankly, every Thursday I very much look forward to a juicy seitan sandwich.

Also, there is a 'brick & mortar' vegan cafe and it's called Subia's.  There's also that Tea joint in The Village.  I've patroned Subia's a lot.  But I also want Cinnamon Snail because it's, well, better.

So this is the issue with artificially limiting choice.  I sympathize with what you're going through, how the SID, an organization that you subsidize, can do this in good faith is beyond me.  I also think that fresh guacamole on the plaza is ridiculous, we have Orale just blocks away -- several types of guacamole, GREAT guacamole! 

If you ask me, I think SID is cannibalizing the membership to keep itself afloat after the governor canceled the funds and that is SHADY.  Has the SID outlasted its useful life downtown?  Maybe so, but nobody just walks off into the dark night, so here we are.

Offline CeeDub

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Terry Kath? Izzat the guy who had the Grilled Cheese store? Did he Janam his self?

Offline AaRoMo

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Hey JC Peace,

Thanks for being a fan of Two Boots and Piersanti.  You know we still have a huge Piersanti tryptic and two others on our walls.
Anyway, to your point, I most definitely don't want to do a Terry Kath!  Ha! I remember him well.  Very sad.  But your comparison is a riot.
 
I knew I was taking a risk by being so public about this but our local farmer's market really hurting a bunch of businesses, not just mine.  For instance there are at least two vendors of falafel and humous.   Ibby's is a block away and getting killed.  He's invested a lot of money and makes the best damned food around.  That's completely wrong.  There are multiple taco trucks.  But we've now got Orale and the Taqueria.  So how can this be justified?   There's a table selling guacamole.  Of course we've got plenty of that.  There's a table selling sandwiches and sliders.   We've also got plenty of that.  There are ice cream vendors.   We've got plenty of that.  These trucks and tables are grabbing our customers as they pop out of the Path at their absolute hungriest.  They've made no investment in JC and employ no one.   It's predatory in the worst sense and completely unfair.  We all pay huge rents to be near the Path station and then the SID drops these folks in at the head of the line and starts competing with their own members?  Come on.  If it continues it will drive grab and go brick and mortars out of business. 

Cinnamon Snail is an interesting case.  It's possible that they deserve a special status as they offer food for people with restricted diets.  But, I'd also argue that once someone opens a brick and mortar offering a full range of vegan fare, they should move on.

And, by the way, three years ago, when I first signed a lease, the farmer's market was completely different.  There was one taco truck.  That was it.

At the end of the meeting last night, I gathered with a bunch of farmer's market folks and suggested we sit down to work out an ordinance that will protect developed neighborhoods like ours and, at the same time, allow for food at markets that are in underserved neighborhoods.  They seemed receptive.  It's easily accomplished.

Your thoughts?

Aaron (not Terry Kath)

Offline jcpeace

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Dear Mr Two Boots,

I am a customer and a long time fan.
For now……

Following what Ceedub said regarding consumer choice: the reason the food trucks are successful is that they offer us things that are not offered by the other businesses in the area.  That said, there are a lot of crappy junk food booths at the farmer’s market, but still: those businesses also fill a need or people wouldn’t support them.

Have you ever noticed the huge line for the Cinnamon Snail truck at the farmers market on Thursdays? They serve award winning vegan fare and are insanely popular due to the work , care and creative vision reflected in their food. There is actually nothing like that around here. And it is well supported because it fills a need in the community.  Did I mention the huge line and insane popularity? Do you think that their customers are going to feel good about supporting the local businesses that seek to get them kicked out of the farmer’s market? I hit the vape and float into your place a lot when I want me a Night Tripper. Don’t wreck my buzz, man. I’ve invested in this neighborhood . You shouldn’t take people for granted and should have a little respect for your neighbors. Especially the landed gentry, with disposable income and the munchies.  Seriously…….

I am part of the local economy and I feel very supported by the Cinnamon Snail.

But yeah, think of that long line at the truck. Then think of a long line of angry consumers who won’t be into supporting your business  or any of the others that deprive us of choice. You’re not really in a position where that would be a wise move.  The sad reality is that there is nothing particularly special about to many of the food outlets in that area. The Bistro is like some sort of  TGIF thing, The Sandwich Shoppe got a call from the 90’s: it wants its menu back. But in the 90’s it was an insanely popular drug window with quite a bit of local economic activity. Orale is kool. Skinners: they have Saranac on tap. Sometimes I’ll hop across the street to your place after downing a few pints. You guys are awesome…….Could you bring Robert Persanti’s paintings back please? You guys kinda lost your visual mojo when those went away….

But you’re not really in an enviable position and I can kinda dig that. You're about to get a lot of permanent competition, especially from Porta Pizza, which will soon be breathing down your neck.  But it’s not like the farmer’s market just popped up yesterday. It’s impact should have been part of your metrics and planning. You guys definitely rule the pizza world of that area, so what you need to do is spread that awesomeness to the farmer’s markets as a participant.  It’s like 50 yards from your kitchen.  As Ceedub said: first dibs for the local brick and mortar businesses .  Don’t alienate people. And don’t do a Terry Kath on your own business, man! Remember Terry? Make me smile…….

I’m ready to get a petition drive going to support this ordinance, if it means stopping this stupidity. I loves me some ordinance!

« Last Edit: 10-08-2014, 11:38pm by jcpeace »
"If your children ever find out how lame you really are, they'll murder you in your sleep." Frank Zappa (1965)

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Offline CeeDub

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I just purchasd 2 bunches of organic red chard from the farm in Chester. I can't get this at Key Foods. Some of the other vendors are puzzling. Hoboken Farms with their white coolers full of stuff? A pizza oven? Homemade guac?  All can be bought within a 5 minute walk. Not so in RivFiske, Mosquito, Lincoln parks.

As far as food trucks, people expect some hot speciality foods be available at these markets. Disallowing out of Towner's puts locals at risk if the exclusion is reciprocated. And what's the point of a truck, anyway?

I posit that first dibs for spaces at any of the DT markets/fests go to nearby brick and mortar shops. Outer naves are developed differently and should thusly operate.We're all in this together, right?
« Last Edit: 10-08-2014, 10:15pm by CeeDub »

Offline AaRoMo

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Hi Rabelais, Jehu and Stephen,

As I said, I understand that some neighborhoods may have fewer food options.  A separate ordinance needs to be crafted that would encompass food trucks, tables and pushcarts.  (By the way, currently food trucks have to be 300 feet away from food and drink establishments.  However, the rule is rarely enforced.)  Such an ordinance would allow a farmer's market to add on prepared foods under certain circumstances.

As to the other issue, you're right, the "food court" affects different businesses differently.  It hits me, the Little Sandwich Shop, Ibby's, the new Taqueria etc. much harder than a sit down restaurant.  However, the owner of Roman Nose, has said he sells a fair amount of take out and that it affects him as well.  So there's a continuum.  Either way, if Jersey City wants more brick and mortar options, it needs to reduce obstacles.  Truly, I would have thought twice about opening Two Boots if three years ago, if there had been so much prepared food sold at the farmer's market.

And then, of course, there's a strong economic argument that I made in my letter.  These outside non brick and mortar vendors do nothing for the local economy.

Aaron

Offline stephen

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Oh the heels of jehu's point, my question is whether or not there the "grab and go" market is being adequately served.  And I do consider this different than take-out.  And I would consider pizza by the slice grab and go, which makes sense as to why Two Boots and Favia are quoted in the article. So the ultimate solution is for more restaurants at Grove/Newark to offer grab and go options.

edited for typo; I hope your heels heal quickly
« Last Edit: 10-08-2014, 05:00pm by CeeDub »

Offline jehu

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I also wonder if the food vendors at the market impacts the local restaurants at all.

It seems to me that the people who shop at the food vendors are bringing home food (rather than cooking) and that those who visit the restaurants are there mostly with friends/family for a more 'social' dinner. I am not sure how the food vendors are impacting those who decide to go out and eat with friends/family.

I do wish the city would look at spreading out the restaurants further down Newark Ave rather than having them all bunched up.
« Last Edit: 10-08-2014, 12:10pm by jehu »
TheFang: yeah, i gotta agree with jehu here

Darna: we had a lovely shat with mrs binky this morning

stephen: Hmm I'm as clueless as you are.

Darna: could someone please splain to me why a person in a gang is called a gangbanger but a gangbang has nothing to do with gang activity?

shahaggy: can't believe I'm saying this but +1 jehu

[02:58 PM] MCA: it's not stalking, it's caring enough to find out things she won't tell you herself

[01:35 PM] shahaggy: fine but jehu's correct

TheFang: as much as it pains me to say, jehu might be right.

One time, I hired a monkey to take notes for me in class. I would just sit back with my mind completely blank while the monkey scribbled on little pieces of paper. At the end of the week, the teacher said, "Class, I want you to write a pape

Offline Rabelais

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Aaron,

I understand your issues with the food trucks and I agree with you, for your location. Your view, though, appears to be a bit myopic.  In the Riverview Fisk market, for example, the only brick and mortar establishment in the vicinity is one that got its start in that very market. Limiting the market equates to limiting the area.
[02:35 PM] jehu: and the only people on here who gives good advice are few.

Offline AaRoMo

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Hi Soshin, Fasteddie and Steve,

Everyone agrees on the need for true farmer's markets.   So to that extent, I think there is a "one size fits all" solution which would look more like NYC's, which has a rigorous application process to insure that the farmers are, indeed local and selling fresh food.  Go to http://www.grownyc.org/greenmarket/faq#q_sell  to see their requirements.

It's on the issue of other types of products that we can't all agree and where there might not be a "once size fits all" solution.  So for those items, which might create unfair competition with brick and mortar, there needs to be a different process.  It would take some time and negotiation, but an ordinance could be crafted that would allow for the sale of other items in underserved neighborhoods.  It might create a distance requirement or require some type of waiver from affected businesses.  It's not at all undoable.

Thanks
Aaron

Offline stephen

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I've been to two Stony Hill Farms locations, they seem pretty real to me.

Offline fasteddie

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Can we not apply the same logic to argue that the farmers put local brick & mortar produce and grocery stores in peril? I'm not entirely convinced that this "farm fresh" produce is all that much fresher than what I might find in a store. And another thing. Who are these so-called "farmers"? What are their credentials? How do we know they are not just loading up a rented truck with vegetables from Pathmark? They could live in Newport or Society Hill for all we know. Look at the photos below. Study them closely. THAT is what REAL farmers look like. Do you see anyone who looks like that at your Downtown yuppie so-called "farmer's market"? Do you?



« Last Edit: 10-08-2014, 09:26am by fasteddie »

Offline Soshin

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I think it might just be the Grove Street market where this is an issue.  I live in Lincoln Park and the prepared foods on sale there are offering things which are not otherwise available in the neighborhood.  To propose a blanket ban city-wide is a serious overkill.

Also Grove Bistro guy never stops complaining about vendors and events being held on that public space.  He complained about Creative Grove and Groove on Grove as well - both of which were there before him.  One would be tempted to think he is some kind of major douchebag.
"god hates you. you will all go to yuppie hell. in yuppie hell there is no starbucks or hole foods or sushi bar. in yuppie hell you will work 16 hours a day in a bodega. in yuppie hell your car will not start when the sweeper is coming down the street. in yuppie hell your doorman will terrorize you and have sex with your wife or husband...when you are at work....in the bodega. in yuppie hell you will go to the laundromat and lose your last quarter in a broken washing machine. in yuppie hell you will buy all your food and clothing at the 99 cent store. in yuppie hell there are no cell phones, you will use a pay phone. a filthy pay phone".      -   Cat_Man Dude

Offline MA

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Downtown Jersey City businesses take on local farmers market
« Reply #13 on: 10-08-2014, 08:51am »
Downtown Jersey City businesses take on local farmers market
By Terrence T. McDonald | The Jersey Journal
on October 08, 2014 at 8:00 AM, updated October 08, 2014 at 8:02 AM

A battle is brewing in Downtown Jersey City, one that pits the owners of restaurants on and around Newark Avenue against the vendors who set up shop twice weekly at the popular Grove Street farmers market.

The restaurant owners say the farmers market, located outside the PATH station for eight months out of the year, has become less of a market for fresh produce and more of a "food court" where shoppers can get empanadas, pierogies and chicken parmesan, all without having to visit any brick-and-mortar restaurants.

"If the merchants don't make money, is that good for Jersey City?" asked Jeff Fabia, who owns the bar, restaurant and pizza place known as Grove Square at Grove Street and Newark Avenue.

Favia said he sees receipts for his pizza joint dip as much as 60 percent when the farmers market, run by the Historic Downtown Special Improvement District, sets up on Monday and Thursday afternoons.

Aaron Morrill, who owns Two Boots Pizza just up the block on Newark Avenue, said he sees a "pretty stark" drop in business those afternoons, too. Morrill said he "embraces competition," but thinks there should be a limit to the amount of prepared food for sale at the market.

"Farmers markets are for farmers, or items made with local ingredients," he said, adding that many of the farmers market vendors aren't even based in Jersey City.

Read the whole article here

Offline AaRoMo

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Hi Rabelais.  I agree.  First draft an ordinance that creates "true" farmers markets.  Then draft companion legislation that would allow underserved neighborhoods to have prepared foods under certain conditions.   Those conditions could be hammered out among reasonable people.    I really think that can be done.

Offline Rabelais

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While I agree that vendors selling prepared foods at the Grove Street market are predatory, I think it would be wrong to institute an ordinance that would affect every market in the city. This is by no means a 'one size fits all' situation.
[02:35 PM] jehu: and the only people on here who gives good advice are few.

Offline MA

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I was at the Grove St farmers' market towards the end of last night and noticed, for the first time really, who was serving prepared food. Other than Legal Beans BBQ there wasn't another Jersey City-based vendor. The two major ones were Paolo's Italian Kitchen (from New Providence, NJ) and Stella's Empanadas (Kearny). I'm at a loss as to why HDSID would allow them space, versus a local operation.

Offline CeeDub

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Stacey Flanagan is Director, Department of Health & Human Services.

Offline AaRoMo

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Dear Jehu, Nbuffum and trixoh,

Thanks for commenting.   You've brought up important points.  (I didn't want my letter to go on for ever so left some issues out.) Let me try to respond.  If I miss one, please let me know.

1.  It's a downtown/HDSID issue.  Yes, in one sense you're right.  This problem started out downtown with a SID that decided to go into competition with its own restaurant members.  Fortunately, the president of the HDSID and several other board members have indicated that they want to phase out prepared foods.  We're hopeful that they will follow through.   If downtown like farmers' markets are rolled out in other neighborhoods, however, I guaranty you'll see similar fights with brick and mortar there.

2.  Not all neighborhoods are the same.   I agree.   I think that is should be possible to craft companion legislation that would allow for vendors from tables and food trucks to sell where the neighborhood is underserved or not served at all.   This is entirely doable.   That way a neighborhood could "add on" a prepared foods section if certain criteria were met.   You'd no longer have the unintelligible, tortured definition of "farmers' market" that the proposed ordinance has.  I invite all of you to read it and tell me that you understand it.  Read both definitions.  They can't be reconciled.
 
3.  Two times a week isn't much.   Actually, respectfully, that's wrong.  Two times a week during our peak dinner rush is huge for us.  Remember, we have very little business during the day.  We are basically a bedroom community with most people working and eating lunch in NYC.  We lose money during the day.  If we can't make that loss up during dinner, we're out of business.

4.  Two Boots doesn't deliver to all of Jersey City.  Actually we do.  On weekdays after 6 pm and all day on weekends. (For technical reasons our website can't have different delivery zones for different times of day.  The same is true for Seamless, Grubhub etc.)  So all you need do is call.  I'm sorry we haven't done a better job communicating this.  I'm going to work on this.  (And by the way, I've often though about opening another Two Boots elsewhere in JC but, right now, I have my hands full with Newark Ave.  I can say that I wouldn't move into a neighborhood that had anything like our Grove Street Farmers' Market.)

5.  Festival Permits.   It's my understanding the Festival permits are meant for occasional events, not twice weekly food courts.  Indeed, Stacey Flanagan has stated on the record that the use of the festival permit for a farmers market (as Grove Street is now doing) is illegal.

Did I miss anything?

Thanks for listening.

Offline jehu

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I would be more concerned with the over saturation of restaurants that are going to open up on Newark than I would be at having people selling prepared food 2x a week at Grove Street.
TheFang: yeah, i gotta agree with jehu here

Darna: we had a lovely shat with mrs binky this morning

stephen: Hmm I'm as clueless as you are.

Darna: could someone please splain to me why a person in a gang is called a gangbanger but a gangbang has nothing to do with gang activity?

shahaggy: can't believe I'm saying this but +1 jehu

[02:58 PM] MCA: it's not stalking, it's caring enough to find out things she won't tell you herself

[01:35 PM] shahaggy: fine but jehu's correct

TheFang: as much as it pains me to say, jehu might be right.

One time, I hired a monkey to take notes for me in class. I would just sit back with my mind completely blank while the monkey scribbled on little pieces of paper. At the end of the week, the teacher said, "Class, I want you to write a pape

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